Welcome, and some comments (was RE: [rdfweb-dev] hey)

[Leigh Dodds]

Marc,

The main thing that troubles me about your email is that you seem have 
this impression that we're all here with our head in the sands ignoring 
the difficulties that users are having with FOAF.

And thats not the case at all.

We're actively working to improve the FOAF documentation and tools 
all the time. Thanks to volunteer efforts the FOAF-a-Matic is now available 
in 8 languages (and I'm looking for more). I count that as a great step forward as 
it opens FOAF up to a vast amount of new users. At the time of writing that tool is 
the 1st Google hit for a search of "FOAF"; pretty hard to miss I'd say.

Dan is improving the weblog all the time, and the Wiki is being restructured 
to improve the documentation. W.r.t support this community is about as 
"wired" as it could be with a weblog, wiki, mailing list, IRC and even the 
occasional F2F meeting. Again we're all here to help.

Jay's problems, which he largely attributes to cut-and-paste errors when 
cribbing from other peoples FOAF documents, are unfortunate but the 
good news is is that he was able to find help pretty quickly. Yes, the 
creation tools should support more of the FOAF vocabulary than they do 
now, but surely its far better to have them supporting the core stable 
set of FOAF properties than rushing to add everything in one go? Jays 
overall impression was a positive one.

We've begun discussing how to label the stable elements in FOAF so that 
can be clearly passed on to both users, and more importantly, tool creators.

Re: interop between the different tools; where do you think that there are 
break downs between FOAF-a-Matic, FOAF Explorer and FOAFnaut? If 
you're (or somewhere you're linked with is) on the FOAFBulletinBoard then FOAFnaut 
should pick you up. If you have FOAF autodiscovery set up then FOAFExplorer can 
read your FOAF with the bookmarklet. If the instructions for what to do with the FOAF 
you generate with the FOAF-a-Matic aren't clear enough then _please_ let me know 
the problem areas and I'll improve it.

So I think everything you asked for is currently in-progress already. If its not 
happening fast enough then perhaps you can pitch in and help out? The 
Wiki is open for everyone to edit, so why not help bring the documentation 
quality up a notch by wading in there?

Cheers,

L. (speaking only for himself)

p.s. I find it amusing that you use Typepad as an example of why FOAF needs 
commercial support, when that product is a service piggy-backing off an 
open source tool thats has benefited greatly from community involvement 
and development. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rdfweb-dev-bounces at vapours.rdfweb.org
> [mailto:rdfweb-dev-bounces at vapours.rdfweb.org]On Behalf Of Marc Canter
> Sent: 03 July 2003 15:05
> To: 'Edd Dumbill'; rdfweb-dev at vapours.rdfweb.org
> Subject: RE: Welcome, and some comments (was RE: [rdfweb-dev] hey)
> 
> 
> I originally wrote.....
> 
> > As TypePad comes out and sets in stone the usage of FOAF as a blogroll
> > representation system
> 
> TypePad is, I'm sure, an important application, but in the world of FOAF
> it's just one application.  I don't think it's as pivotal as you suggest
> here and in http://blogs.it/0100198/2003/06/30.html#a1358
> 
> The weblogging world is a cool place, but it's not everywhere.
> 
> ================================
> 
> My response is............
> 
> Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the blogosphere is everything,
> what I'm saying is that for FOAF to be accepted it needs commercial
> products, with logical, well thought out user experiences - which aren't
> predicated on voodoo knowledge, insider hints and tips and the current
> world of "oh gee, don't you know about....."
> 
> That's the world of FOAF today.
> 
> ================================
> 
> When I further blabbed in about SixApart, Edd then replied.......
> 
> You're in agreement with the community with these goals: your points
> here seem to be congruent with the aims of FOAF and other emergent
> semantic web interest areas such as RDF calendaring and geographical
> apps.  People are very active in these areas already.  From the
> perspective of seeing the current interest areas and applications, I'd
> dispute that SixApart is some sort of golden key here.  It's already
> happening.
> 
> =================================
> 
> So I respectfully disagree.........
> 
> As much as you think FOAF is happening, I gotta say that........ well
> just look at Jay Feinberg's recent journey
> (http://icite.net/blog/200307/foaf_ok.html&smm=y.)  Jay is a very smart
> guy and let me tell you my own journey parallels Jay's experiences.
> 
> This stuff is FAR from obvious, well documented, supported or,,,,
> 
> Let's just say - I REALLY appreciate the work everyone has been putting
> into this - but I'm a product guy who makes software for humans.  FOAF
> is not about humans right now.  It's for computer scientists.
> 
> ==================================
> 
> 
> > Thanks Ben - for getting this started.  And thank you Morten for the
> > cool, new FOAF Explorer features.
> 
> Maybe I misinterpret, but just for the record, I think the blame for
> starting FOAF can be placed with Dan Brickley and Libby Miller, named as
> the primary authors in the spec.
> 
> ===================================
> 
> Marc humbly apologizes...... 
> 
> There I go - putting my foot in my mouth!  OF COURSE I understand that
> Libby and Dan are the originating and driving forces here.  But if it
> weren't for the imitable likes of Mr. Ben Hammersley - I wouldn't be
> here.  Or Morten.  Or Danny Ayers.
> 
> Remember it's about links in the chain.  I haven't even met Libby or Dan
> yet - but let me tell you - Ben puts on a good show.  When he showed how
> RDF and RSS 2.0 (via ENT) could both represent topics - the veil of
> complexity of RDF was lifted - for me.  So I give credit where credit is
> due.
> 
> So when I said "getting this started" - that's what I was referring to.
> 
> =====================================
> 
> I further went on to look like a combination of an utter oaf and starry
> eyed dreamer.....
> 
> > Now it's time to get this stuff into the hands - of the people!
> 
> I enjoy your energy, Marc, but parts of your posts to this list read
> like you don't believe people here had considered these things.  Dan
> Brickley and many others have put a lot of thought, time and energy into
> this project: it's not just been languishing the last two years,
> important work has been going on.
> 
> ======================================
> 
> So I again have to apologize.......
> 
> Yes - I understand all that......... [see below]
> 
> =======================================
> 
> Edd goes on to eloquently point out............
> 
> FOAF's worked well as an under-the-radar project, with people getting
> interested, writing code, and thus having influence in the project.  In
> the big bad world, everybody thinks they can have a say and disaster
> results (we don't have to look too far for examples.)
> 
> Before the adoption explosion happens, some issues must be resolved. 
> For example, a structure for the evolvability and governance of FOAF
> needs to be put into place before putting it into the hands of
> everyone.  Leigh's earlier comments about tagging the stability of
> certain parts of FOAF is a case in point.  FOAF's a live, wiggly,
> creature.  Setting things in stone too early could be bad.
> 
> While there maybe isn't yet an explicit masterplan, I, and others who
> participate in creating FOAF tools, view Dan Brickley as the leader of
> this community and in charge of FOAF's direction.
> 
> Please realise I don't mean to be a party pooper.  Welcome to the
> community, it's a fun place to be!
> 
> I just wanted to point out that it's not a land of dreamers or naifs
> here.  There's a lot of work gone into this project, and an established
> way of becoming involved in it -- spend some time getting a feel for
> what's going on, and then contribute in terms of code and
> documentation.  I'm personally not convinced that a big marketing plan
> is yet what we need, nor a reach for world domination.  There are plenty
> of cool things FOAF can steal or learn from other, similar, efforts.
> 
> Speaking for myself only,
> 
> regards
> 
> -- Edd
> 
> ====================================
> 
> Ok - so...........
> 
> .............I suggest/request a formal FOAF.org get set up.  That would
> make it easier to find info on FOAF, get you/us started in the direction
> of formal specs and governance and create a catalyst for deployment.
> 
> ............. I myself have found two ways of connecting friends to
> friends.  I met Aaron Schwartz last night and he admitted that maybe the
> technique he used wasn't "kosher".  So best practices and self
> monitoring might be in order - right now.
> 
> ............  The type of inter-connectivity that me, Jay Feinberg and
> others are attempting - is a good first test at inter-operability.  For
> instance - just trying to get:
> 	- FOAF Explorer
> 	- FOAF-a-matic
> 	- FOAFnaut
> 	- and some list somewhere of FOAF accounts
> 
> working together seamlessly might be a great start.  This issue of
> spurious and mal-formed FOAF files is a concern.  I can see the wiggle
> clearly - from where I'm sitting.
> 
> ..............  I understand that it's too early for grand marketing
> schemes - but as I started off my initial message - the train is leaving
> the station on FOAF and what I'd like to point out is that over and over
> again - we've all learned that the first 'to market' often defines the
> market.
> 
> Just one word to remind you of the ramifications of that = "Dave Winer".
> 
> So as much as I appreciate the 'percolation time' time you've all put in
> - I highly suggest that..........
> 
> Well let's just say.......... here we go!
> 
> 
> 
> 
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